'Red' | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

Hello and welcome to every single album Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Princioti. I'm a staff writer at the Ringer. I'm joined by Nathan Hubbard and we are here today to talk about Taylor Swift's album Red. And I'm going to go ahead and drop us right in Nathan to A minute and five seconds into the fourth song on this album, I knew you were troubled. Hard ground trouble, trouble, trouble. And there's a bass drop here that I think changes the course of Taylor Swift history. But what I'm hoping you will do is build out around that what this album is and what the context that that seismic shift of a moment on that song. When you hear a dubstep beat from this woman who has been grounded in country music up to this point does, because the things that surround it, the space that encapsulates that moment, is almost as interesting as the moment itself. Would you agree?

And some of that transition was happening as the album was being created. Right. Because a lot of these songs she did with Nathan Chapman, she did them in the same sort of way that she'd written her three previous albums, and she sent them to her label, and pretty much everybody was satisfied. But the one person who was not satisfied was Taylor Swift.

And towards the end of the album creation process, they'd made a bunch of songs, but she felt like we need to push the envelope a little bit. We can't just do the thing that we've done before. And that led to the song I knew you were trouble that we just referenced. It also led to we are never ever getting back Together, the first single that was released from this album and a huge hit. And that is where she shatters the box that she had constructed around herself that had been constructed by other people around her, and launches fully into the butterfly flapping its wings phase of that metamorphosis.

Taylor's never bored.

So put a pin in that for one second because we should just touch on Max ever so slightly more. Right. Because this is the person responsible, in addition to Britney Spears for Hit Me Baby One More Time, This is the person responsible for I Want it that Way. Tell me why, Tell me why. And pretty much, I mean, so many earworms. If you, anyone who hasn't ever done this, give Max Martin a Google because you will just be blown away by the number of year defining, era defining pop songs that he had a hand in creating.

Yes, it's going to be me. Incredible. But if you couple that craftsmanship with Taylor Swift's own, it creates these incredibly special songs that were kind of the headline for this. But what you were just describing in terms of Red being this innovation Lab is the album as a whole, which has that back and forth quality. I mean, let's go down some of the tracks here and how they come together because one of the core critiques of this album, and probably the reason that it didn't win a Grammy for Album of the Year, is that it's not a cohesive sound. It's not defined by sonic consistency or a particular genre.

She'S going in real life. Thank goodness we don't have to pick. But if you had to pick between. What's this album doing? Is it breadcrumbing everybody who she needs to make sure stays on board the ship as she goes from port to port versus is she doing this? Because this is just what she's. She's feeling? Is one of those or the other more compelling to you in terms of telling the story of this album?

Well, one of the ones that's really instructive for that is track nine, stay, stay, stay, stay, Which is a country track she did with Chapman. And think about that title, right?

Right. She's trying stuff out. And I also do think that Taylor's called this her only true breakup album. Right. And some of the gut wrenching this of the real breakup songs. I need 22, I need. We are never ever getting back together. Like I need those breaths of fresh air. And I don't want to step on our all too well conversation because it's going to be a huge part of this. But my like pinnacle moment with that song was a few years ago. I was very upset about a boy situation that seems totally stupid now, but I hadn't been able to bring myself to listen to that song for a few months. And it was New Year's Eve day and I was in a spin class because I am a cliche and a loser. But it was like an extra long New Year's themed thing. And my friend Maddie who was teaching the class, uh, she at a really like towards the end of it played all too well. And the song starts and I'M like, oh, crap, I'm gonna just cry, aren't I? This is gonna be bad. This is gonna be embarrassing. People are gonna notice. And then it starts playing. I walked through the door with you the air was cold but something about it felt like home. And I'm loving the song because it's an incredible song, but I just wasn't. It did not feel applicable to that situation in my life, which was a really, really pleasant surprise. In that moment, I was like, oh, that dude does not deserve this song for me. Like, I'll save that for. For some other time when it's more meaningful. And by the end of it, I was almost, like, cracking up on the bike. Because when you feel like, oh, my gosh, I don't need to feel that way about this situation anymore, what do you want to do right after that? You want to, like, dance and scream and wave your hands around? And what does this album do right after that song? It gives you 22. We've got to recognize that this album is capturing that emotional roller coaster, too, because Taylor had had this tumultuous relationship with Jake Gyllenhaal, and then she'd started dating Conor Kennedy of the Kennedy family, who was a high school student in Massachusetts at the time. And she'd had this experience of breaking up and getting back together again and breaking up again and then finally moving on. And I just think there's such a purposefulness in those transitions that might feel random or jarring because of the chaotic weight of emotions that she's trying to put into this again. Wouldn't wish a horrible breakup on my worst enemy, no, but still, this is.

And doing some of her absolute best work at the same time. Let's start breaking this album down into some of our categories, because the biggest song here, which is our first category, is, in my View, We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together, which is one of those songs where it is tongue in cheek. It is reactive to the situation, and she drops some hints. Right. But this, to me, is the biggest song because it's her first Billboard number one. It is funny. I think that's a huge part of it. Like, Taylor is a very funny person. I don't think that gets talked about enough with her. But do you think that this song made the splash that it did just because of the content of the song? Or you're also bringing in the indie record that's much cooler than mine, and that becomes part of. Oh, who would that be about? Who did this? Who did that? And so that's one of those examples where those. Those two things converge.

Do you think there's a world in which they would have done I Knew youw Trouble first?

It's so good. And the. The much cooler than mine is super special. But the moment that I love on this song is just right at the beginning where it's. I remember when we broke up. And then you can just hear it in her voice when she's like, the first time.

I remember when we broke up the first time. It's absolutely perfect.

So he called me up and he's like, I still love you. And I'm like, I'm just. This is exhausting, you know, like we are never getting back together, like, ever. So there's debate over this because either. And look, let's be honest, Taylor has told this story differently a couple times over the years. It's not super materially different, but there are some nuances. Either while they're in a recording session, a friend of her ex comes into the studio or he calls her, or someone calls her and says basically, oh, I heard you guys are getting back together. And she's working with her producers and she's just like, we are never getting back together. And then starts going and is just feeling it and all of a sudden it's a song. So there is some debate over whether was the guy in the room. That seems weird. Like, right. Like doors closed.

They're recording a song. Yeah, you're just going to barge in, but weird things happen sometimes. Or if it was a phone call. But either way did come from a real experience where it was just like, are you kidding me? Leave me alone, dude.

It's not lonely and it's also very knowing. And I'll spoil I knew you were trouble is actually more special to me from this record. But what these two have in common is this knowingness.

It's the bass drop. That's just an incredible moment that it's.

You're just like, whoa, Taylor Swift did that. And by the way, it still sounds awesome. Yeah, yeah. So that's incredible. But it's also the knowingness of it, right. The idea that for the first time, really, she's saying, I kind of knew this was a bad idea and I did it anyway. And though we are never, ever getting back together, the knowingness on that is a little bit different because it's more hindsight. It's not talking about. No, no. First thing first, I decided that the high was going to be worth the pain. To borrow a phrase that comes later, but they both have. We've talked about the idea of remove in some of her older songs, which was creeping in beforehand. But when you're. When you're growing up, you go through a lot of things where you don't quite know how to feel about them and you're insecure and you're. Should I say something? Is this messed up? It feels messed up. But what if I'm wrong? What if I'm overreacting? Whatever. And so it is so satisfying to get her just being like, no, I know.

And I'm right.

And that's really fun.

New technology tools and nothing more peak Internet than competing theories. Because the other narrative is I think Jake Gyllenhaal is friends with the Vampire Weekend guys. So I think that was either it's one or one or the other. It can be both. Whatever. They're never ever getting back together, so it doesn't matter.

We were both racing to who could say that first, you know, has the.

Before you.

I agree. And that that confirms to me that you view this as her ultimate track five, the best one she's done. Emblematic of the track five experience.

To me is the other contender here. I. It's all too well, but if you wanted to make it a onew, the silver medal is Dear John.

Through the storm we reach the shore. You give it all but I want.

And this is where I think Taylor solidifies herself as just an all time writer of Bridges. But I will say, I think in some ways the quality of the bridge of this song and just the lifespan that it's taken on, it overshadows some other really special moments. Like, for instance, dance around the kitchen and the refrigerator light gives me chills. That's incredible. Right. Like you. You just see it. You see the whole thing. And I think this is where, you know, it's interesting because. So this. This is allegedly a Jake Gyllenhaal song. I think it's.

Fairly plain. There are some visuals, like real visuals, things I saw in magazines or on the Internet of the two of them walking with maple lattes.

Big sweater. Energy that are of this era and are kind of seared in my brain.

And it's amazing that as much as that's true, I can see some of the vignettes just in the writing.

That are coming from my imagination, basically, is clearly. And I think that's interesting to me because she is comfortable doing that in the work in a way that she becomes uncomfortable about it being available for public discussion. Yeah. But that's why this is fascinating. Right. Because it's not as though she was always like, no, no, I'll never let anybody in. We're very much in. We can see it. We can see it on our own. But this is such an example of her being okay. Doing it on her own terms. But then these things, I mean, Jake Gyllenhaal posted a photo on Instagram like a couple months ago, where it was from when he was a little kid. And he's wearing glasses.

Which is a line in the song. Every single comment on the thing was an all too well lyric. Like, this song has a tail.

Like a Taylor Lautner level star. Yeah. Just kidding.

Well, think about the dumb story that I told at the top of this podcast. I felt sort of affirmed in my own getting over a breakup because I decided that it was not worthy of. All too well. Right.

So I think you're right. I think the fan base is a little bit more generous to Jake because.

There's. And it's just like, it's so huge. So you can't. The fall is only that rough because of what we imagine came before. It must have been so incredibly special and powerful, and I have no clue if it was right, but it's such a big, iconic song that I think it's hard to be like, that guy sucks, period. Because if he sucks, how did he become part of the origin of this incredible thing?

She's over it. She's okay. And he kind of knows he screwed up, right?

He's sending his friends after her, either via phone or into the recording studio. So you're kind of like, okay. I'm confident that he's. He's. He's suffering in the way that I want him to be. I also think an aside. Harry makes out okay in the songs. I gotta be honest, for someone who. Who came up in a boy band where maybe there's a little bit of, like, not that. I mean, boy bands are hypersexualized all the time. Like, Harry seems a little bit more suave and adult and cool because of the way that he's written about in Taylor Swift songs. I think he made out just fine.

No, it's Max and Shelback. And you could if they were responsible for the drop and I knew you were trouble alone, I would give it to Max and Shelback. If you have to pick a before and after moment in her entire career, that is it.

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My question is, first of all, because Maggie Gyllenhaal, in my view, feigned a little bit Too much cluelessness about what's going on with the scarf. When that came up, she was like, I'm totally in the dark about the scarf. I am in the dark about the scarf. It's totally possible. I don't know. Okay, I have been asked this before, and I've been like, what are you talking about?

I don't know if you're totally in the dark about the scarf, because the lyric in the song is that she left the scarf at the sister's house, and you've still got it in your drawer, even now. So if she left the scarf at the sister's house, and then the scarf somehow makes its way into Jake's drawer, somebody's got to know that the scarf was there.

Jake does not like to get asked about Taylor. Howard Stern, of all people, could not get him to talk about it, really, at all. And he's had some very testy interviews where it comes up. So he is not helpful on the scarf. Friend. I don't know if we can get a forensics team or something in here, but someone moved that scarf, and I want to know who it is. And Maggie Gyllenhaal feels like our best chance. So, Andy, if you ever get another interview, please go back at her. Let's figure this out. It remains one of the best Easter eggs, not just for this album, but I think kind of for all time. Like, that scarf is an iconic scarf. If we ever found it, it would deserve placement in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame.

I love that story, too, because to go from buying a place next to your Boyfriend's family's house and then growing up into. Actually, my New England beach house is going to be this. This former mansion owned by this like, sort of eccentric woman that she eventually writes Last Great American Dynasty about. That's very fun. That's a very funny growth story. I do want to make sure that we put into this category as a contender the liner note for Begin Again, which is I wear heels now.

Which you actually pointed out to me once. Something that I thought was really clever. I always took that as a subtle dig at Jake Gyllenhaal.

Particularly tall.

Is that true?

Well, and we'll do him a favor then, because you enlightened me that there's a non Jake Gyllenhaal related reading of that line.

Which is heels as opposed to what other type of shoe?

We've been living in all too well land and we are never ever getting back together land and all these songs that we absolutely love. But we are going to have to cut songs from this album, which is pretty painful, but I'm going to make you do it well.

I want to hold the hand inside you.

As am I. As we go through this category, the. The little thing that's in the back of my head often while we're doing this is okay. I mean, it's not the best song on the record, but I'm glad it exists. I. I'm glad I got to listen to it. I would be fine if we launched Girl at Home into space and never let it return. But yeah, you know, the exception that proves the rule. I suppose my argument for Sad, Beautiful, tragic. I'm not burning down the house for it. But I love the name of the song. I love the idea that, I mean, she's just packing as many feelings as possible into one concept.

I could also do without the Ed Sheeran song.

Yeah. Doesn't do a whole lot for me. I just. I think they sound nice together. I know they're really good friends. I'm super happy for them. I don't always need boys in the clubhouse, you know.

I'm happy to have them both. Those are both songs that have grown on me immensely. I take your point that they are similar. Sometimes I think her. The first songs on her albums are kind of. They're kind of stage setters. And sometimes I wonder if she writes very much with the tour in mind, I think, because those are lovely songs to hear, just fill an immense space.

Which is fine. I'm happy for them to serve that purpose. I want to add, just because we talked about it with Last Kiss, there is another. The influence of Grey's Anatomy is present on this album as well. I allege Snow Patrol is very important to the Grey's Anatomy soundtrack. If I lie here.

And I think this is Taylor basically saying to herself, man, I love that show. I named my cat after Meredith Gray. How can I insert myself into the Grey's Anatomy soundtrack without actually doing it? Gary Lightbody, come on down.

It's not my favorite thing I love. I actually love is maybe a little bit strong because it does. It does frustrate me that that dude is just taking the first verse of the song. But by the end of that song, the last time, it kind of explodes and it turns into something that I think is really, really, really good. Which makes me even more frustrated, frankly, that it's like, okay, you're Taylor Swift. Sing first, damn it. Yeah, but there.

That's true. But when you're somewhere to hear Taylor Swift, I. I have this problem on songs where she's collaborating with people that I think are really, really, really good songs. But when you are there for her, it's just. It's actually a tough thing to execute. Right. Because it's like, accept this thing. That is not the reason that you are here.

The song totally works for me. Chose the Rose Garden over Madison Square.

Chose the Rose Garden over Madison Square. And it. Is one of my favorite lines. I do want to give Britney Spears just a modicum of credit in the origin story of this song too, because there is something derivative of the song Lucky as well here.

Come on. Of course.

Isn't she Lucky, this Hollywood girl?

There's no way that wasn't part of the thought process too. Yeah, because we're already talking about Joanie. I want to get into some of my Taylor tidbits from the depths of the Internet because they have to do with that. But before we get there, I just want to confirm with you that you are good with this album title. You would stick with Red. You don't have any notes as far as the title?

Do you like the song Red?

Losing him was brutal. Like I never know. Missing him was dark gray on.

I actually really like it. It's very rarely the first one. You know, sometimes I'm listening to the album in order, but if I'm just going to choose a song from this album, it's very rarely the first one that I click on. When it is or when I get to it, I'm always surprised by the degree to which it kind of knocks me over. Like lyrically it's really strong and it just has power.

I did once make that reference. No, this. This feeling about that song predates that piece, but so Red is one of the reasons. And now we're going to get to all of my wonderful Internet research and Taylor tidbits. Red is important because that is where a lot of the comparisons to Joni Mitchell's Blue come up. And you mentioned the album cover where Taylor's looking down. It looks very similar. She was the creative director for the art and the visuals on this album, so that's totally, totally her choice. And. And coming from her, she was also in talks to potentially play Joni Mitchell in A biopic that never happened.

So Joanie apparently wasn't happy with it. Interesting. Like got a hold of a screenplay or something and, and, and killed the project.

So we'll never know.

But those two have orbited each other in a number of different ways and.

Right. The other piece I had was about the scarf, which we've already talked about. I'm going to keep the mic here and move on to the Tom Hiddleston Award just because usually this is a fun category and silly mine for this is less fun. This is the album where she straightens her hair and she gets bangs, which is a classic post breakup thing. But as we did some research for previous albums, I came across a line that I'd forgotten about. In the Fearless liner notes, she writes to Scott Borchetta, thank you for believing in me since I was 14 and still trying to straighten my hair. Your family, and I gotta say, it was kind of hard to read because playing with your hair and doing. Doing different stuff is fun. Like, that's great. But this is also a period of her life where I think body image becomes really difficult, as I think it pretty much does for anybody who's constantly being photographed and in the public eye. Not to mention basically every woman growing up ever.

Right. And I can make jokes about getting bangs after you have a breakup or whatever. But in this moment where she is quote unquote, going pop, which is a strategic decision. Whatever. But it's also, you know, this is her art. This is the thing that she wants to succeed and thrive and is most meaningful to her. And having those aesthetic decisions about what you look like be kind of a volleyball in that. It brought me down a little bit and it, it made me think differently. Just about looking back at. At what she was doing and the different people and influences that were pulling her in. In different directions. So maybe you have something a little bit more light hearted for this. But it struck me when I was doing my research.

It was really powerful for her to. To do that because I think a pretty common way of, you know, unfortunately, a lot of women have experiences like that, and a pretty common way of processing it is grounded in, well, am I going to be okay? Is this going to impact my professional life or my personal life or whatever? And a big, substantial way, right? Like, do I have to change my job or do I have to cut off a relationship or something like that? And sometimes when the answer to that is basically no, like, you can kind of, you know, she could have gone to her next appointment and she's Taylor Swift. She had a lot of security in a lot of different ways at that time. Acknowledging that just because in some ways you are going to be okay, that the thing that happened was not okay is really hard to do because, again, she's Taylor Swift. This is some jackass dj, but that doesn't change how horrible that is. And I think having someone that powerful and that meaningful to people acknowledge that was. Was a really big deal.

All right, so I need to exhale a little bit before we get to Peak Taylor, but thankfully, there is still a lot of joy and exuberance that we have to mine this album for. Do you want to go first?

It was admittedly a little bit of a bananas decision on her part, but you know what? Do what you want to do, Tay.

It.

Cape Cod real estate, too. I. I think she flipped it at a profit. Can have been a bad investment.

That's. No, it's. It's not my Peak Taylor moment. My. My peak Taylor moment is the indie record that's much cooler than mine and the delivery of that and then how it comes back around when she eventually makes her own indie record. That's really fucking cool.

He also seems so lame or not even. I don't even really associate that with. With Jake Gyllenhaal, the person, the celebrity. Because it's just such a trope. Right. Like that dude who's like, oh, that's. That's very mainstream. Like, this was. This was a time where the word mainstream was very often thrown around pejoratively.

And never made sense. Right. Like, maybe I'm too shiny and optimistic a lot of the time. When a lot of people love something, it's because it's great. And I think you just. You can. You know exactly how that dude would talk about her music.

In the way that she responds in that line. And it's just. It captures so much, and it's so wonderful, and it's certainly taken on a greater life now.

And.

It's the same concept as the thing she wrote about in the Fearless liner notes. Right. Like, it's not getting over stuff or feeling secure. And stuff is not the absence of insecurity. It's just contextualizing it properly and being able to live your life anyway. And that's where the knowingness, quality in this of, like, yeah, okay, maybe you think that, but this is still a great song. And sure, I've had those thoughts too, too. But I'm in a good place with this is really, really, It's. It just, it makes you feel good when you hear it because you internalize that quality.

Is actually beginning I Think I'm Funny Cause he never did.

There it is. There it is.

You heard that version of her doing it live at the Bluebird.

At the very least, it could have gone on instead of Girl at Home.

God, Taylor.

I Knew your Trouble is is my belatedly best song. And that's a really good example of that. Right. Because just again, that drop is the before and after. And how she executes that in hindsight on the RE recording is. It's fascinating. I also want to give a little bit of credit to State of Grace, Treacherous and Holy Ground. Just because those songs in the moment I spent less time with and they've really. There's Treacherous now.

It's so good.

It's so, so good. Your name has echo through my mind.

Yeah, it's the Mac songs.

You're so weird.

So casually cool in the name of being honest.

You're absolutely not.

That's. That is the answer. That is an entire story in a few words.

Lines she's ever written. I think, and I am holding out hope that on the rerecorded version we will hear the 10 minute version with the F bomb. Like Taylor release The tapes, yeah. But I hope that it's in addition to. Because those little moments. I mean, who knows if that's on that version or whatever? But I don't want to. I don't want to get into anything where there's a possibility that we lose that line because it is one of the greatest Taylor lyrics of all time. Now, do we have the grades we have to give this album a grade? Well, yes.

That's the central debate when we're thinking about how we assign a grade. But in this case, I think she's absolutely right. This album is an A to me, because my view is actually not just that it's purposeful or okay, that it goes back and forth. I think it captures the emotional roller coaster of a lot of the experiences that she's writing about in this album. And I will remind people we have not given an A to every album. We're taking this very seriously. This is one. And I like that Daft Punk album. And I think you could also make the argument about the Kendrick record that that's really lasted and been important to people. But this is a special, special album that I think among really big Taylor Swift fans, it is most often the favorite album. And if we think about album grades or Grammys or whatever, the purpose being to kind of create a record about what was meaningful and what ended up being lasting. This album should have won, and it deserves an A.

On our next episode, we're going to talk about 1989, which is where to me, Taylor enters her world domination phase. But when you look back at Red, this is where she laid the groundwork. Nathan, this has been wonderful as always.

This has been every single album. Taylor Swift for Nathan Hubbard. I'm Nora Princioti. We just finished talking about Red. Join us Monday when we're going to be breaking down 1989 when Taylor goes full. This precedence day. Upgrade the look of your home without breaking your budget. Save up to 50% site wide on new window treatments@blinds.com blinds.com makes it easy with free virtual consultations on your schedule schedule and samples delivered to your door fast and free. With over 25 million windows covered and a 100% satisfaction guarantee, you can count on blinds.com to deliver results you'll love.