Every Single Album
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Every Single Album

Every Single Album

Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard are two pop music enthusiasts. Together, they break down every single album from some of your favorite stars, like Taylor Swift, Adele, and Harry Styles. Topics include favorite collaborators, track five meanings, where these artists get their inspiration, and more.

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    Every Single Album
    Episode•March 16, 2021•1h 19m

    'Speak Now' | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

    Nathan and Nora are here to talk about Taylor Swift's third album, 'Speak Now.' Beloved by fans, the album shows Taylor's continued turn away from country and into pop, displays her sharpening songwriting skills, and includes canonical songs like 'Mean,' 'Back to December,' and of course, 'Dear John.' Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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    Transcript

    0:00
    The Ringer's music critic Rob Parvilla curates.
    0:02
    And explores 60 iconic songs from the.
    0:04
    90S that define the decade.
    0:05
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    1:53
    Hello and welcome to every single album Taylor Swift. I'm Nora Prince. I'm here with Nathan Hubbard and we are going to talk about Speak now today, Taylor's third album and I'm excited for this one, Nathan, because we just talked about Fearless, which was such a huge moment for her and it struck me thinking about Speak now that this is one that is very dear to my heart. There are songs in this album that are so important to me and yet it's really hard to place. Can you describe to me what kind of moment you feel like speaking and what its legacy is for Taylor?
    2:27
    Yeah, I thought you were gonna tell me that you thought this album didn't hit, wasn't as big as it should have been. And that's a concept we should discuss because I think we can argue both sides of it. If you had said this wasn't a big album, I would have said I think I reject the premise. Rolling Stone.
    2:47
    That's why I didn't say it right is because I don't quite have the parameters settled for what is a big Taylor album and what isn't. Right. This was the number one album. This was a huge, huge deal by any normal artist standards. But I hope you're going to tell me why maybe it's a little bit murkier by Taylor standards.
    3:07
    Well, I think you're right that it came out of the gates huge. Rolling Stone said it's roughly twice as good as 2008's Fearless. It debuted at number one on the Billboard 200. It sold over a million copies. It was the biggest one week sales tally for an album by a female country artist ever. It sold 4.7 million copies roughly to date in the US which is more than red has sold in the US red outsold it internationally.
    3:36
    But that really surprised me when you heard that.
    3:38
    Isn't that amazing? Fearless only sold 592,000 copies in the first week. So this album roughly doubles what Fearless did. So it's a big album and it's bigger in every way than what we've heard before. She's taking more risks. Her range is higher. There's tons of strings, orchestral arrangements. I mean, this thing has like big D energy. And I mean Disney. It's like, it's this, the sparkle and long flowy dress on the COVID and. But now she's tackling subjects with more maturity.
    4:10
    Right?
    4:10
    She's had some real relationships and this album becomes this reflection, a collection of letters to people saying things that she didn't say in person. But as great as the songs are on this and I and I want you to talk about your experience of hearing it because I think this one is this one. Like the real ones know this album is close to the heart of people who love her songwriting.
    4:34
    You're the kind of reckless that you send me one But I kind of know that I won't get far.
    4:43
    But you can't help feeling at the end of this like we're at the edge of the forest of what she can do within this genre. And with this kind of music and this kind of production, it doesn't get any bigger than Back to December. I mean, that Is just an anthem. It's iconic. But why didn't this album just go in our minds as big as Fearless? And I think it comes down to three things. One is it's coming after a phenomenon in Fearless. And the second act, the follow up act, is always harder. We're fickle as a public. And this is. This is now sort of the third album that's in this style. Number two, the blade that she uses on this is sharper. She is more incisive. She is merciless in some of these songs. And you wonder if that maybe presented some crossover. The story started to get spun. We need to talk about today about how you better not date Taylor Swift or you know she's going to write a song about you. Grossly unfair. But there was starting to be a projection of an image of her being ruthless in her songwriting. And then the third, I mean, let's be honest, the world's going heavily pop at this time, right? We got Katy Perry, we got Gaga wearing the fucking meat dress to the Grammys. And even if you look at the artists that she herself started bringing up on stage on this tour, she's bringing up Nelly and Bieber and Jason Mraz and Usher and Bob and TI And Floretta. I mean, she's not bringing up the country set on most of her guest appearances. So you can see that the world is going pop. And maybe, maybe there was a little bit of a perception of her as a country artist that was still hangover. We know what she's going to do with it from here. But you heard this album right in the wheelhouse of your teenage years. What did it mean to you and how did these songs resonate when you heard them?
    6:32
    It felt so much more personal than a lot of the other songs that I was listening to at the time. Because, okay, 2010, the top single of the year is TikTok by Kesha. This is the year of California Girls and Dynamite by Tayo Cruz. Like, those are songs where if I told you to start singing them and you said the same thing to me, you and I would start in the same place in the song. It's really obvious if, if I said just like go sing TikTok, you would be like tick tock on the clock.
    7:04
    But the party don't stop now and.
    7:06
    We would start in the same place as always. These songs that Taylor wrote for Speak now, they are long and they are builders. There's only three out of 14 songs on this album that are under four minutes long. And this is an album that excels in little moments. A guitar lick, a sigh, a laugh, a particular phrase. So it was really different, I think, than a lot of the songs that, like, they were playing at my school dances. This was an album that my memory is, I would put it on to go for a run by myself. And like, you're in high school, you do pretty much everything with other people. Like, I played sports with other people, so I would really just go running if I just wanted some me time. And I would turn on Speak now and just go, and if it rained, all the better. And that was sort of the feelings, processing time. I, I, I remember really, like, running to the top of this hill behind my high school and just being like, this is where I can get it all out and this is how I can use it. And this album, I think when you contrast it, because the world was going pop, Taylor was in some ways going with them, but she was doing it differently. This album was so much more personal and confessional, which is why it's called Speak now, that it did something really different than a lot of the top pop songs of that year did, which maybe made it a little bit dissonant with everything else that was going on in a way that might have to do with why I don't necessarily feel like this album quite gets its due. It's a little bit hard to place because there are such special songs here. And yet the bookends to it feel like when she says, I just realized everything I have is someday gonna be gone on Never Grow up. The Just in there is so important because I feel like this era of this album starts when she has that moment of, oh, shit, life's getting a little bit real well.
    9:14
    And it does well, right?
    9:16
    And this is out of the imagination, fearless and into reality. Not just reality for her, but reality for everybody who's consuming it. Because the people that it's about are public celebrities. But then the other bookend is on Long Live For Me, which is it was the end of the decade, but the start of an age. The thing is, and this goes back to our original question of how you place this album. The new age comes on red. And I think maybe that's, that's where some of the murkiness to me around how we remember Speak now comes from. Because it's not the true sonic transitional album, but it is the thematic transitional album. And the ways that she communicates some of those themes and how honest and true to her they are is so, like, Makes them so meaningful that I'm like, why do we not scream and yell from the mountaintops about this album more often? But she followed it up with such a just like glass case shattering, iconic album that is Red that I think it gets lost in translation a little bit long. Answer to your question about me taking angsty runs as a 15 year old or whatever.
    10:27
    But if we fast forward too quickly to Red, you miss why she went to Red and this album. I mean, first of all, you talked about the moment that she's in. You are smacked upside the head on the second verse of the first song, which is mine.
    10:43
    Flash forward and we're taking on the world together. And there's a drawer of my things at your place.
    10:51
    And I'm like, wait, wait, what? What? We were just talking about 15 on the last album, and now, wait, she's staying at somebody else's house. And then you get through this album. Wait, she has her own apartment. Wait, you're almost. You're almost put in this position of having to let go of the teenage love songs that we were getting and realize that this woman is growing up. And that, I think, is an adjustment for some people as they sort of came into this record. The core fans obviously understood that she was growing up and this was, you know, sort of a welcome next step because, again, the songs are bigger. But I think about this album as, like, Taylor's last solo stand. Like, you know, the old adage like, if you want to go fast, go alone, if you want to go far, go together. She's the producer on this. She's written every song on her own. She's written each song with a purpose, with a message to an individual. But I think the final lesson when you look back on this album from 30,000ft, you know that starting with Red, she's going to start to bring in a host of collaborators from here who. Who will push her. She will push them, and then she and her music are gonna evolve. She's gonna evolve as a writer, a singer, a producer, a performer from here. And this feels like that last hurrah of what was in her original comfort zone, that she and Nathan Chapman made the biggest, brightest, big Disney Energy album that they possibly could. And maybe the fact that it didn't shoot all the way to the moon and that she didn't fully cross over is part of what gave her the inkling to start expanding beyond this bubble that was comfortable for her.
    12:38
    Big Disney energy is cracking me up because there's a bonus track on the deluxe version of this album called Superman where there's just this little moment on it where it goes da da da da da da. And it sounds exactly to me like the music that they play before they go to commercial on a Disney Channel original movie. Like that's what that is supposed to be. It's just supposed to lead you into like a Crest White Strips commercial or whatever. I would push back on that a little bit, though, because I think big picture, you're right. But another thing that I hear on this album is Taylor trying on different styles.
    13:13
    Tell me where.
    13:14
    Well, I hear it on the Story of Us Better than Revenge, Haunted, A little bit of the sort of Paramore, even Evanescence pop punkiness.
    13:26
    She spent New Year's Eve 2009 with Haley Williams. I mean, she. She has a very close friendship with her, and you can hear it in those songs. I agree.
    13:34
    And I take that as evidence of this thirst. Right. And there are some other points where she's trying. She's trying on other styles almost as a satirist. Right. On. On Dear John with the guitar lick on Mean being so derivative on purpose of country. But some of that is. Is for that effect. Other parts of it, I think, are just an honest desire to expand our horizons. And maybe that wasn't the original conception of what this album was going to be, but I think if you look closely, you can really see her kind of pushing against the walls. She doesn't shatter them.
    14:18
    Right.
    14:19
    And that's when we get to red. And again, maybe that's part of the context here, but I. You can feel. Feel the desire for more, more, more.
    14:26
    There's no doubt Haunted sounds like an Evanescence song, But still, I think there's so much attention on her. Is she going pop? You know, she's a. The. The sort of inside critics start calling her country pop or pop. Right. But that is not necessarily a fair assessment because if you look at the commercial performance of some of these singles, you can see the tension that she had in managing her own career. I mean, Story of Us does not break the top 40 in the Billboard 100. It's like her only single that didn't do it. The two biggest songs, Sparks Fly and Ours, which is on the deluxe album, wasn't even on the original album. Are the two songs that go to be number one hits on the Billboard Hot Country Songs chart. The others do okay, but Back to December is huge and it doesn't get higher than sixth. So I. I still think she's being pulled in a few directions here where it is not easy to break out of the box. That Is Nashville. We talked about that on the debut album, how she certainly walked into that box. Some of that box was built around her by Scott Borchett and Big Machine. But it is not easy to break out and transition in that way. And there are radio people who are trying desperately to keep her in the countryside of things. And as you say, the subtlety and nuance of this album is that she is pushing out as hard as she can against the walls of that box and she doesn't break them. We know that's going to come. But you wonder if they looked at this as a success. I mean, for all of the chart topping and amazing things that it did mean is the only one that wins a Grammy. It wins two Grammys in the country category. She doesn't get an album of the Year nomination. And at this point, she is constantly trying to think about how to get better and better and better. I wonder how she feels about this in hindsight, because the fans love this album.
    16:40
    Right. This is her era of this Into Red. I do feel like are the Taylor fans Taylor albums kind of. And it is interesting to think about how much shine Red gets for being iconic and sort of where Speak now fits in as the precursor to that. And we should say that we're not just talking about this in hindsight. Right. She was getting asked a lot of questions about this as this was all going down. She told rolling stone in 2010, she said, I'm inspired by all kinds of different sounds. And I don't think I'd ever be someone who would say, I will never make a song that sounds a certain way. I will never branch outside of genres because I think genres are sort of unnecessary walls. So this was very much a part of the conversation.
    17:25
    Yeah.
    17:25
    And let's get into some of these categories because I think Biggest song is sometimes on some albums, that's an easy one. Right. On this one, it's kind of hard because of what you just described about chart performance versus place in fans, hearts versus awards. What do you have for the biggest song?
    17:48
    I'm not going first. There's no way I'm going first on this one. You gotta tell me, what is it? Come on. You feel like there. There's a murderous row of iconic Taylor songs on this album. That's what you said to me. What do you think?
    17:59
    I chose Meme.
    18:00
    Someday I'll be big enough so you can't hit me and all you're ever.
    18:08
    Gonna be is mean because it wins the Grammy for best Country Song and because I just remember it more. I remember thinking about it more. I remember being moved by it more in the moment. And I think, because this is a vexing album in terms of looking at the chart positions of a lot of these songs, I'm. I just don't remember. For instance, mine is technically the highest charting in terms of the Hot 100 is the lead single. I Don't Remember Being like, Mine is this huge song from this album. That. That is not part of my memory of this album.
    18:48
    Well, I have a hard time separating my own personal stuff from mean, and I'll tell you why. This song is about a guy named Bob Lefsetz, who is the music industry blogger, and he writes about the music industry and pop culture and technology, but mostly at the time that this was happening, it's the music industry. And he effectively, after a couple of live performances, accused her, including her SNL performance, accused her of using auto tune and said that she can't sing and just laid into her. And it was, at the very beginning, core, a mean thing to say. Now we know, because he published the receipts afterwards, that she called him from London, I think twice, and protested and said, listen, you can say that my voice is weak, but come out on the road and look at my touring gear. I don't use auto tune. Like, I sing the way that I sing. If you want to tell me I'm missing notes, that's fine, but don't challenge the authenticity of what I'm doing up there. And at the end of that description, he said that she had won him over, but the damage there had been done. And the reason that I can't fully separate from it is Bob Lefsetz has written a lot about me personally, and he wrote a lot of very nice things. And then there was a time when he wrote something that was extraordinarily mean and hurtful. And the reason that it's mean and hurtful for even somebody like me is that, you know, the entire industry is reading this stuff. He is the blog that everyone you know subscribes to. And so your colleagues and your peers and other people in the biz, and in. In Taylor's case, that's everybody she sees every day. And so to have an accusation like that leveled on my little tiny world, I know what that feels like and how, like, I was, like, on my back for a night, like, oh, God, how am I going to explain, like, it's wrong what he said? He didn't even understand what he's talking about. He's either, you know, making this up or he's lying or he's exaggerating, whatever. Well, yes.
    21:00
    What was it?
    21:01
    I don't really want to tell you because it's embarrassing. I'll tell you what he said. I was an officer of a public company and my salary was published. And the way that that information gets published is, you know, when it goes in public, filings looks different than it actually is. And he basically said paying Nathan Hubbard this much money is like paying an opening band that much money or something like that. And it just like. It just was like, you know, he basically told the world that I was being overpaid. It's painful. It's hard to hear. And he'd said so many nice things about me before. As Taylor said, I thought you got me. That's the little.
    21:40
    That was the liner note.
    21:41
    Liner note, you know, hidden. And I felt like Bob got me. And listen, since then, I've spent a lot of time and I still feel like Bob gets me, but I am wary that he's going to pull out the shiv and put it in between my shoulder blades at any moment in time. So I hear the song mean, and I can't separate myself from it because I'm so inside it. Right. It feels like, you know, the first time I heard it, I was like, yes, fuck you, Bob. And I think that's really what the purpose of the song was. And she went out and sang it. And it is something that I know for a fact still sits with him. He does. It's. It was a hard thing to hear it. It was a public, you know, shaming in a lot of ways for the way that he publicly shamed her. And so Mean to me is about that as an iconic. I gotta put it on and listen to it song. It's Back to December for me.
    22:40
    All right. And those two are. In some ways, there's a link on a lot of the songs here. Look, whether it's you or Taylor or Bob, Leftset's being sung about in a. In a hit song, it's hard to be spoken about in public. And that's a huge subtext to this entire album, including Back to December.
    23:02
    That's right.
    23:02
    Which is a song about a teenage werewolf. Just kidding. It's a song about Taylor Lautner. I didn't even get a laugh for that. Geez, tough crowd.
    23:15
    Well, I mean, listen, what. We're gonna go deep on Taylor Lautner. I mean, this is Taylor Lautner's biggest moment, isn't it?
    23:21
    Exactly, yes.
    23:23
    I mean, what happened to the guy?
    23:25
    Well, so we're gonna get to that later. But since this is a song about a teenage werewolf, I'm very curious to hear what about it speaks to. To you, Nathan Hubbard?
    23:35
    I look on the deluxe edition, there's an acoustic version of this song. I don't really love it, even though it's got some strings. It's the bigness of the song that, you know, she look vocally, she is experiment. She's pushing herself on this song. She hits, like, you know, some really big notes on this one. I just love. I mean, the mandolin is on this album, but it's buried. This is this grand orchestral apology. She's never done this before. She's never been quite as vulnerable and confident at the same time as she is in this song. So I just love the bigness of it. I love. You know, they recorded these strings in Capital Studios in la, which is this sort of like, historically huge room where Sinatra recorded and the Beatles, and you. You can just hear the grandness of it. And that's what I love about the song.
    24:39
    And she says sorry.
    24:41
    She says, I'm sorry.
    24:42
    That's a critical component to Back to December. Yes, she'd written a lot of breakup songs, but this was really the first major time where she said, I screwed up and I hurt you.
    24:54
    So this is me swallowing my pride, standing in front of you, saying, I'm sorry for that now.
    25:02
    And if you're gonna write meme, it's really helpful to also write Back to December for the same album because everyone's fair game, including her. And that is why this song. I. I don't. I think about it, I guess maybe I have some recency bias just because that's even a bigger song to me than Mean Now. And I think in the moment, I just remember, you know, you're young. There's a lot of times when you hold your tongue when you feel like someone's hurt you and you just don't say anything. So having someone like Taylor Swift just say, like, you, yes, someday I'm gonna have so much more and be so much better than you are. And, like, just having someone that you idolize, get that out there. Is cathedral cathartic.
    25:45
    And the way that she recorded Mean Mattered, too. The vocal track is right up in your face, and it's dry. And what I mean by that is a lot of times you'll hear people's vocals have a lot of reverb or other effects on them processing to. To. It sounds better. Sometimes it covers up the way that you hit certain inflections and notes and so forth. But this vocal is dry and it's in your face. In the mix, she does some vocal acrobatics. Guess who's not singing on this anywhere? Nathan Chapman. She's the only voice on this song. She's doing all the harmonies and it's really just says, again, like you said, fuck you, I can sing. Take this.
    26:25
    There's the part in the song where a lot of the instrumentation drops out and it's just her harmonizing with herself and it's so dry, like you said. And that's the portion where when she performed it later at the Grammys, she altered the lyrics to say, someday I'll be singing this at the Grammys. That's where it detonates to me. Both in the recorded version, just because of how upfront that sound is. And then she used that moment to create that second Grammy moment. Because I think one of the performances that was criticized for being weak was a. A previous Grammys performance was also the SNL thing. But I think she had another moment at the. At an earlier Grammy show. Yes, that was part of it. Well, we're talking a lot about call.
    27:19
    Outs and it's time.
    27:22
    It's time. Are we ready? We could do a whole pod on this.
    27:25
    I know, I know. I mean, we're going to track five.
    27:30
    Which means we're going to Dear John.
    27:32
    We're going to Dear John, which. I mean, how do we even start on this? It is about John Mayer. It is an evisceration of John Mayer. It sends him to Montana, leaves him dressing up like the man in the yellow hat in Curious George for five years. People still haven't forgiven him. He got mashed on TikTok when he joined a couple weeks back by Swift fans. It really was the defining takedown of a guy who had a history and, you know, has had a history since. How do we even begin to talk about what this song does? I mean, the way that she basically took gravity, took a lot of the energy and music from Gravity, the way that the guitar licks mirror all of his most famous moves on the guitar. How do we even describe what this thing is?
    28:47
    What is more of a skewering? Is it the guitar lick or is it some of the lyrics? Don't you think I was too young?
    28:55
    Yeah. I mean, that's it. When she comes out of the bridge, It's some of her best singing. I think it is her best singing yet. When she goes up and hits that high a coming out of that bridge, you're like Holy. Yes. Yes. I do think. You were too young. You were too young. How creepy that a 32 year old would go after a 19 year old in this moment. And so it just pull. You can't help but be pulled onto her side.
    29:32
    The emotion conveyed in the song is so effective that it's really hard not to. Not to believe her about the real life events here. And, and since all these songs are about people, there are varying degrees of that with each one. It's. It's interesting how the effectiveness of the song has an imprint on whatever situation it was written about and how people came to view it. I don't know how you can hear this and not go, this fucking douchebag.
    30:08
    Fuck.
    30:08
    John Mayer just like did a horrible thing to this girl and he's. He told Rolling Stone that he didn't know what it was about. He said he was really caught off guard and that it humiliated him at a time when he'd already been, quote, dressed down. It's really hard to listen to that song. I'm. I'm not passing judgment about what actually happened, but it's just really hard to listen to Dear John and not go, this comes from a real ass place.
    30:36
    Yeah, John, uh, John and I had the same producer for the. The, the guy who produced his first record, produced our records. And so I had a little bit of overlap with John. And I think at best you can say that John, you know, took a long time to find out who he was. And that same interview, that same Rolling Stone interview that you alluded to at the top of the pod, she said, I'm always going to love John Mayer. I'm always going to love people like that who I feel are truly authentic. And that's not to say that my music will ever sound like theirs, but I'm inspired by people who I feel know exactly who they are. And that inspires me to continue to figure out and inform who I am as an artist. That was written January 5th, 2010. This album comes out at the end of 2010. So something very, very painful happened in that stretch of months that led to the exact opposite. She wrote a song that sounded exactly like his about how inauthentic and how completely uninspiring of a human being he was and how he clearly didn't know who he was. What a killer.
    31:49
    My favorite moment in this song is when the girl in the dress cried the whole way home turns into the girl in the dress wrote you a song.
    31:59
    A classic Taylor twist of word and tense. And, you know, in, in the last verse, Right. She does this in a lot of songs.
    32:08
    It's probably my favorite songwriting trick of hers. And it is not only a twist of words, it is a twist of the fucking knife. Like, this song is so good. John Mayer did eventually write a song.
    32:23
    About her, and I would posit that Paper Doll is the best song ever written about Taylor Swift. You like 22 girls and one.
    32:38
    Okay, all right, let's. Let's get into this. So the candidates are. There's a Jonas Brothers song called Much Better, where there's a line that says, now I'm done with Superstars and all the tears on her guitar.
    32:50
    Now I'm done with superstars.
    32:54
    All the tears on. Every time. She refers to that at the end of Better Than Revenge, Right. She refers to the song Much better.
    33:05
    Right There's Perfect by One Direction has. If you're looking for someone to write your breakup songs about, if you're looking.
    33:14
    For someone to write your breakup songs about, Baby, I'm Perfect.
    33:20
    Feels like a post. Taylor and Harry Taylor reference.
    33:24
    Yeah.
    33:25
    Ever Since New York by Harry Styles is maybe about Taylor, maybe not at all. Who knows? I don't know if we want to put famous in this category. I don't think we're gonna find a lot of love for Swish Swish here.
    33:48
    Nope, we're not gonna find a lot of love for Swish Swish.
    33:52
    Calvin Harris is too vague to figure out if there's anything in there. So, yeah, I think it's Paper Doll. I mean, I like that Harry Styles song. And actually, perfect is like, a fun. It's a fun listen, but it's. It's. Paper Doll is probably the best song written about Taylor Swift. I think we can pretty concretely say that.
    34:08
    Okay, I'm happy we agree on that.
    34:11
    All right. Are we. Okay? Have we have. Are we coming out of this emotionally intact?
    34:20
    Yeah, I think we are. I mean, this is the first song, track five, that really grabs me by the throat. This is the one that feels. You just. You can't help but be inside the pain and emotion of it. And, you know, cold as yous we talked about before didn't grab me in the same way, for example, on the first album. But this one, man, if you don't get this, you're probably listening to the wrong music.
    34:50
    This is in some ways why I think Speak now in Red is the core. Taylor fans, Taylor era. This is where the track fives are just the true, true, true track fives. Everything you think about when you think about a track five and yeah, this defines the exercise.
    35:12
    So this is the last album that she's gonna do entirely by herself as a songwriter, and she is a co producer on this album. So a lot of this, as we said, this is sort of Taylor's last solo, Stan. But with that said, then, who do you think is her most important collaborator on this record?
    35:36
    I cheated here. I think the most important thing to think about when we think about how she's working, who she's working with with this one, is that there wasn't one. Nathan Chapman is here, but they are doing things that they have already done. And I think it's much more important when we think about Speak now, to think about how she was getting to use all those influences. Maybe not quite all of them, but a lot of the influences that she wanted to try on. We talked about Haley Williams, we talked about. Or maybe we haven't talked about this yet, but I think we both hear.
    36:05
    Some Avril Lavigne Levine on this record. No doubt the orchestra.
    36:13
    I just. I see her, like, grabbing and pulling things in, and it is my assumption that that is coming from her, like, oh, let's try this, let's do this, let's do this. And there are songs where it feels almost cinematic the way that she'll just use. You know, she'll have a spoken line under something, and. And I am attributing all that to her. And so I think that's the important piece, is that she's starting to really want to flourish in terms of how big the footprint can get.
    36:48
    Yeah.
    36:49
    Do you buy that?
    36:50
    I do. I think. Look, whoever is playing mandolin and banjo for her is now terribly afraid for their job because it is going away. I think Nathan Chapman has one last huge highlight on this album, and that is the supporting vocal on Last Kiss. And the line that, you know, like this, like, as they sort of drag out the word this. His underlying vocal to her is awesome. That's, like, one of my favorite parts of this album. But I do think that her most important collaborators here are Mike Meadows, Paul Sadati, and Amos Heller, who are guitarists and bass players. They're really the meat of not just this album, which features a lot of rock guitar, but they are settling in as the foundation and the bedrock of her touring band, and she is now becoming a huge, huge artist. On the first tour, she. She played to 1.2 million people. She played the same number of shows for Speak now, but she played to 1.6 million people. She made $50 million more. She's basically going from 10,000 people a show to 15,000 per show. She is now graduating to stadiums. She's playing lots of arenas, but a few stadiums, including for the second time, your beloved Gillette Stadium in Foxborough. The second time that she played that is the world famous Rain Show. But coming out of these studio sessions, she is finding people who she trusts enough to bring out on the road where she can present visually the sounds that she's worked so hard in the studio on. So it is her last stand solo. But I think those people are really important in what's to come.
    38:50
    There are songs that are great vehicles for them, too. Like the way that the end of Long Live Just Explodes is so great for the band. Story of Us is not my favorite song on this album, but the only thing that I really like about it that much is just that it's a good vehicle for how good the band sounds.
    39:06
    Do we know who this is actually about? Because at one point, like Rolling Stone or People Said it, it was Joe Jonas. But it's about John Mayer. Right.
    39:15
    It's allegedly about being seated near John Mayer at an awards show and feeling uncomfortable about being near him.
    39:33
    Right. She came back. I like that it uses the lyric sparks fly.
    39:37
    Yeah.
    39:38
    But I don't totally get why this song didn't do more. I mean, this one does feel Hayley Williams Paramore inspired some Avril Lavigne in here for sure. Like girl pop punk. Why didn't this do better?
    39:52
    I don't love the vocal on it. I don't. There's so. It feels a little bit like a. Like a cousin of Haunted. And in Haunted, there is so much paranoia in her voice. Like, she just sounds so desperate. I don't get that on Story of Us. And it doesn't have the huge sort of strings explosion.
    40:17
    Yeah. She's breaking the fourth wall, though, with the Next chapter.
    40:22
    Yeah. And I think that stuff is fun. She does that a little bit on Better than Revenge, too. Again, not my favorite song, but it's cool that she's doing that. I just. There's these little bits, but it doesn't. I don't think it lands fully.
    40:35
    Interesting because that was a single. It did okay. It didn't do great, but it feels like if it had been released as a paramore or an Avril Lavigne song, it would have crushed. I don't know. That trial balloon that they floated by releasing this song, which I think they actually only released to pop radio.
    40:51
    Yes.
    40:52
    That was a troubling signal back. It wasn't gonna be rainbows and Unicorns just moving directly into pop. And again, we talked about how Hours was an example of a song that wasn't even on the original album that was a big hit on country radio. They got a few signals from the marketplace back that maybe Pop wasn't 100% ready for her, at least not in this form. And I think that's the key. My day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym pre K pickup back home to meal prep time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits. I'm ready Celsius live fit Go grab a cold refresh Celsius at your local retailer or locate now@celsius.com.
    41:42
    From athletic stuff like a full court pickup game swish to athletish stuff like a half mile stroll, get those steps in. Head to sierra or sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic, Sierra's got it. This episode is brought to you by FX's Love Story. John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bassette join host Evan Ross Katz on the official podcast for FX's new series Love Story, John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette, and go behind the scenes with cast and special guests featuring Sarah Pidgeon, Paul Anthony Kelly, Grace Gummer and Naomi Watts. FX's love story John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette Wherever you listen to.
    42:25
    Podcasts, one of the things that was really helpful for her in terms of holding the attention of a mainstream audience was the heavy duty Easter egg placement on this and the assigning which she says she does in the liner notes of every song to a specific person. And we know, right? We just, we just had this story of us conversation. Very few of them are opaque. So can I go to you first? Will you give me your most purposeful Easter egg first, Nathan?
    42:59
    I will. I'm gonna punt it back to you quickly, though. I mean, for me, it's the John Mayer guitar pieces and just the way that she had those players rip off, not just in the solo, but even the rhythm tracks underneath. There's some patterns that Mayer plays on a bunch of his songs, in particular the song Gravity. So that Easter egg is barely an Easter egg because it's so in your face. It's just brilliant.
    43:26
    That's the most brilliant one. I chose a different one just because you don't. The guitar lick makes. Makes Dear John absolutely sore. And it's so clever. But there are so many you know, the title alone, like you know who Dear John is about, that one's pretty easy to figure out. I gave it to 32 and still growing up now on Innocent.
    43:52
    Uh huh.
    43:53
    It's okay. Life is a tough crowd. 32 is still growing up now because.
    44:01
    I needed something pretty clear to know who that song was about because tonally it is hard for me to get. This is my reaction to the Kanye VMAs moment in music.
    44:17
    By the way, John Mayer was 32 also, but sure.
    44:21
    So 32 year olds, just really, really troubling territory.
    44:24
    Yeah, she needs to stay away from 32 year olds, is the answer.
    44:26
    I mean, bad.
    44:28
    She turns 32 next year, it's going to be trouble.
    44:31
    One of my friends calls 32 the witching hour for men.
    44:36
    Well, apparently so.
    44:38
    And maybe, maybe this is. I'm just thinking this is through. This is maybe evidence to that theory. But we do, we. We can glean that Innocent is about Kanye. The liner note says life is full of little interruptions, which is a clear reference to the VMAs situation.
    44:56
    And she spoke about it publicly as forgiving someone who'd been hurtful to her publicly. I mean, this is, this shows just remarkable forgiveness and almost pity. And the thing that's hard about talking about Innocent for me is as we do every episode, we have to pick a song or two that we're gonna cut from this album. And one of the things that I will say is what's interesting about this album is there's nothing obvious to cut to me. And that's what makes Speak now really great. And I think her most underrated album. If I was going to pick one and you're gonna push back hard on me on this, I would have either picked Innocent because, you know, fuck that. Like it wasn't received the way it was supposed to be received. And it didn't obviously change the behavior and it certainly didn't cauterize the wound. So let's just get rid of it. Tell me why Haunted is so great again and not just an Evanescence song.
    45:50
    First of all, there's nothing wrong with Taylor Swift doing an evanescent song.
    45:54
    Agree.
    45:56
    She captures the nervousness really perfectly and that there's like a tremble in how she delivers it that I think really works.
    46:05
    It's getting dark and it's all too quiet and I can't trust anything now. And it's coming over you. Like it's all a big mistake.
    46:15
    You have to receive it as almost a little bit campy.
    46:18
    Yeah.
    46:19
    But if you do I'm a sucker for those strings. And this is the song. When I told you that story about going on, like, dramatic runs up behind my high school, I was going like, I'm sure my mile splits would always increase on haunted. So it's not like my favorite song from this album or anything, but I keep it.
    46:39
    And in your case, you want to cut Enchanted, don't you?
    46:43
    What?
    46:44
    No. Okay. Thank God. Okay.
    46:46
    I can't believe you just said that.
    46:47
    Well, I don't want. Look, I mean, first of all, it's the Owl City Guy song, which is hysterical.
    46:54
    No, that's. That is one of the. Enchanted is one of the songs that I was alluding to when I was saying there are absolutely, like, canon Taylor Swift songs on here. No, Enchanted is incredible the way that towards the end of Enchanted, when the internal monologue of, like, please don't be in love with someone else.
    47:14
    Yes.
    47:15
    So at first those go back and forth. Right? Like, you get this night is sparkling. And then you get, please don't. And then by the end, they're on top of each other and. And it's like, I've listened to that song in my bathroom after every great first date I've ever had in my entire life, including one where I was moving out of my first apartment and I was, like, dancing around to it and I tripped over a stack of books and like, twisted my ankle and then just, like, laid there on the floor until the song was.
    47:49
    Well, she does two amazing things on this song. One is there's a lot of Al City in the chorus and in the way the vocals are treated like it's awesome. Number two is. It's the highest note that she sung to date by a mile. She sings a high D sharp here, which I talked to you about. The A coming out of Dear John Bridge. A D sharp is high and it is very Owl City esque, but she nails it. What doesn't get nailed is the response of Adam, the Owl City guy to this song. And I need you to just explain what the hell happened there, because it's one of the most cringy responses. If John Mayer's Paper Doll is the best song written sort of in response to Taylor Swift, this might be the worst thing ever written in response to Taylor Swift.
    48:44
    Yeah. So the Owl City guy covered Enchanted, and it was so embarrassing and bad that she never responded to it. So she basically went from being, like, spellbound by him to just being like, I can't talk to you anymore.
    48:58
    Oh, Taylor, I was so enchanted to.
    49:03
    Meet you to.
    49:09
    And he posts a response that includes the words, you are a true princess from a dreamy fairy tale semicolon.
    49:16
    I forgot about that.
    49:17
    A modern Cinderella. So, first of all, Big D energy, Disney energy. But God, that is cringy. Like, be cool, man. Just. You don't need to even respond. Let everybody talk about it.
    49:30
    Can we? Let's just. Let's keep in context that we're talking about Adam from Owl City and you're.
    49:36
    Like, be cool, man.
    49:37
    Like, Owl City had a great moment. I remember that. But yeah, I don't know that. I think once you're leveling up. Taylor Swift writing an iconic song as a response to briefly meeting the Owl City dude. And then he's trying to add another layer on top of that. Like, I think you're probably. He was probably just a little bit beyond his depth, but I think he can feel very proud about having inspired one of my absolute favorite Taylor Swift songs.
    50:04
    Okay, we're not cutting Enchanted. Thank goodness. I just got worried. What are we cutting?
    50:10
    I'd cut Speak now. It just sounds like a soundtrack song to me. There's a couple funnyish lines, but the characters in it aren't interesting. And I feel like it's on the album just because it's the album title.
    50:28
    Why are a lot of her fourth songs that way? Like, we felt that way.
    50:32
    Yeah, that's interesting.
    50:33
    You know, the third songs are always home runs for me, but sometimes. And we talked about the sequence not always being the awesomest. Speak Now. I think there was just so much about what the words meant to her and how that theme permeated the album that not putting it there maybe is what you want to do. I mean, it's sure. We know that's a song that was inspired by Hayley Williams as well. Like a story that she told about going to. I think her ex boyfriend was her drummer and went to the wedding and then she had a dream and wrote it. So I get the lyrical components of it. It just. It isn't super inspiring. So I don't blame you for picking that one. Is there anything else on here that you would remotely think about cutting?
    51:15
    Well, so the answer to that is no. But there's an interesting question for when she re records this. What she does about better than revenge because she's a little mean.
    51:27
    Is it misogynistic? That's the chatter that she may not record this song because it is mean.
    51:43
    So, yeah, it is a little bit. Here's the thing. People have weak moments, and people have moments when they say things that maybe they shouldn't have said about someone. And it is interesting to me that you get that full spectrum of behavior on this album. So the. The blind in question is she's better known for the things that she does on the mattress.
    52:11
    This was written about the woman who dated Joe Jonas. After her.
    52:17
    After her. Yes.
    52:19
    Camilla Bell.
    52:20
    I wonder if she could rewrite it from Camilla's perspective and make it really, like, cool and interesting. Maybe. Maybe Camilla was just as mad at her as. For responding this way as Taylor was a Camilla. And maybe there's a way of. Because here's the thing is, like, you have to be angry in this song and I. I don't want to totally let her off the hook for it because, yeah, it's a. It's a jerky thing to say about someone. Like, she doesn't know. Right? Like, she doesn't know her. This, like, random girl's sex life. And that's a thing that. If you're a young woman and you're jealous and you're angry, like, yeah, occasionally people say some things that they regret about that. But maybe there's a way to do it where you spin it. I don't know. I. I would kind of like to hear her try. I'm not going to tell you that it, like, really deeply bothers me because, again, that's part of being young and going through the gamut of all these emotions. But that's my vote for how she could do that because I don't want this song off the rerecorded album because I do like it.
    53:27
    She played it through a lot of the tour, so it wasn't like she wrote it and then gave it. I mean, the song that follows it is Innocent, by the way, a song about forgiveness. So it's interesting, the positioning of those two songs together. I have not heard that she's really spoken about the song much. There's been a lot of conversation about it in the community, but not directly from her. So it will be very interesting to see what she does with this song going forward. Now. I'm just not sure that we spent enough time on Taylor Lautner. Did we?
    54:00
    Well, we will, okay? I promise we will.
    54:02
    I just wanna make sure it doesn't get lost because I do need to ask you about the song from Valentine's Day, which is going to be included in Fearless. We didn't talk about it on Fearless, but I do need to ask you about that because Today Was a Fairy Tale debuted at number two on the Billboard Hot 100. And that was higher than any of the other songs on that sounds so weird to me. Isn't it weird?
    54:24
    Just, like, don't quite get what happened there.
    54:26
    Every move you make, everything you say is right. Today was a fairy tale.
    54:33
    I mean, I know how much you love Valentine's Day.
    54:35
    You say this to me all the time. I did see that movie. I do remember seeing that movie. It's not terribly good. I don't know that Taylor's IMDb page is really the most impressive part of.
    54:46
    Her career, but, you know, it's Taylor Lautner's fourth best movie. So, Willie, what is it about her.
    54:53
    That makes you so happy? Well, she's beautiful, she makes me laugh.
    54:58
    And she does my geometry bonus. And Felicia, what is it about Willie that's so cool?
    55:03
    Oh, well, besides the fact that he's totally hot, he's an amazing athlete. All right, we're gonna get. I promise you we're gonna get to it. You're so. You just want to talk about Taylor Lauder so badly.
    55:13
    I just don't know what happened to him. All right, we'll get there. Let's go.
    55:17
    All right, well, first we got to talk about the title of this album, which we talked about a little bit on. On Speak Now. This is actually a good thing to do together because again, I think Speak now stayed because it's the title track and it does. It's a good title. I would not change the title of this album.
    55:33
    Should it have been called Enchanted?
    55:35
    Well, as she wanted to call it. And then at least per Scott Borchetta's telling, he told her, you're not all fairy tales and princesses anymore. You gotta think of something else. And she came back with Speak Now. Yes, I think. I think that's a good point. And I like identifying this as a confessional album. I just don't think the song is good. Like, for instance, I think ours is a much better song. Like, I would swap ours and Speak now for what made the original record. That's the only problem.
    56:17
    Ooh, you would swap in ours? Yeah, yeah. I mean, and the music listening public would have agreed with you at the time.
    56:25
    And also, just for. People throw rocks at things that shine alone. Like, I want that song.
    56:31
    Yeah, okay, I get that. I mean, I don't wish that the title had been any different. I wish she'd called it Dear John. Because in a lot of ways, each of these songs is a Dear John letter. You know, sort of. It's over. And I'm now telling you what I actually think. And I'm gone.
    56:46
    Can you imagine?
    56:47
    Well, I know, but that would have been the thing.
    56:51
    Like, he would have had to enter Witness production.
    56:53
    Yeah. So we get into the Hiddleston Award for showing the work. I want to have a discussion really quickly about the liner notes on this album, because the liner notes and then the subsequent interviews, you know, we read a couple from Rolling Stone, but she did a lot of interviews during this period. She really is clear about who all of these songs are about. And there is a very thin line between communicating, you know, the origin story of these songs and intentionally or probably unintentionally is going to be my argument. Publishing her personal life. And this is really where it starts to happen, where there's so much focus on who it's about. And because in so many of these songs, who it's about is a public figure, the press and a lot of the public take that as carte blanche to be forever. You know, speculating and asking and talking about her personal life. Do you think that she regrets publishing her personal life the way that she did around this album?
    58:06
    I doubt she regrets the songs, but she played into it in a way. And I don't know that the liner notes, again, those are so special to fans, and there's something still sort of fun and earnest about that.
    58:26
    They are.
    58:27
    So for Last Kiss, the liner note is forever and always, which tells you that, okay, maybe this is a song about Joe Jonas.
    58:38
    Yep.
    58:38
    The intro to this song is also 27 seconds long, which is the same length, allegedly, as the voicemail he left to break up with her. And those details in the songs, I think, are really clever and wonderful. I think most fans feel that way. I bet she feels that way, too, when it's within the song. What I think she might feel some regret about or maybe some anger about everybody. Let me do this. And sort of egged me on. She hosted Saturday Night Live, and she does this. It's called monologue Song is how she does her monologue.
    59:14
    I like writing songs about douchebags who cheat on me, but I'm not gonna say that in my monologue. I like writing their names into songs so they're ashamed to go in public, but I'm not gonna say that in my monologue.
    59:30
    And then there's lines where she's like, I'm not going to talk about Joe, who broke up with me on the phone. And it. It's a little uncomfortable to watch back because it feels like she's eagerly stepping into being kind of a toy for people of like, oh, go Dance and do that thing and call people out, like, do your trick. And when it breaks, the world of this is part of the album, this is part of the art, this is part of the liner notes and is on that like very public consumption world stage. Then it gets more uncomfortable to me. And I. I bet she wishes she did some of that differently. And look, she eventually writes the lyric, my awards shoot to kill when I'm mad. I have a lot of regrets about that. Yes, I think we can pretty concretely say that, yes, some of this she does regret.
    1:00:18
    That's one of my favorite songs that she's ever written. But what we're finding here is there is this internal safe harbor community of Taylor Swift fans who love this stuff and where it's again, safe for her to publish these things. And she wants to interact, she wants to give us the nugget, she wants to give us these Easter eggs and create that sort of scavenger hunt to get at what was really at the heart of the song. Because the connection between Taylor and her fans is about that emotion that she's writing in these songs. But what she's learning here and what she learns with left sets and the reaction that she has and what she's going to continue to learn as she goes forward is that there are people who are not in that internal community and for whom a lot of this leaves her open and vulnerable and those people take advantage of it. And she is listening just in the same way she listens to every fan to try to make that experience great. She's out in the Internet, Tay lurking now, but she's reading the bad stuff too, and she hurts from it. And it's going to continue to impact the way that she writes songs and the way that she presents herself going forward. Nora, what did we find on the Internet?
    1:01:30
    There's fun ones for this. So ahead of the album Release at the CMA's, and this is a great example of what you were just saying where she's just always paying attention to the end user, the fan. Taylor did a 50, 15 hour meet and greet. 15 hours. She like shook hands and signed babies or whatever for 15 hours. It was supposed to be 13 hours, but they were still going and she did 15, which is just unbelievable. I hope someone gave her a Gatorade. Sparks Lie was an old song that originally used really heavy banjo and fans would always ask for it. So they updated it for the album but made it way poppier, which I think is interesting because one of the reasons why that there's A drawer of my things at your place feels like, holy shit, how did you grow up this much in. In two years? These are more recent songs, whereas Fearless, there's a lot of mixing and matching of. Okay, some of these are still really old songs that she wrote a few years ago. Some of them are new, some of them are two days before the album is finished. But there is this. That one example of that had been a really old song. 0 swear words on this album. Not even like a hell or a or a damn. Writing in the LA Times, Ann Powers, music critic, commented that there were no Swedish Svengali producers working tricks on this album, which I think is very funny and ironic because we know it's about to come this. I need to offer just a warning that my fact checking on this has to do with just looking at a lot of Google images. But it looks like the two people who were seated between Taylor and John Mayer at the ceremony that led to her writing Story of Us were Brad Paisley and Keith Urban.
    1:03:19
    Ooh.
    1:03:19
    So somebody asked those guys like if they could feel the tension in the room. And then the apartment that she moved into in Nashville, which she references on Never Grow up, sounds frankly insane.
    1:03:35
    Yeah.
    1:03:36
    Like she's talked about. She. She gave an interview to Vulture where they noted. They went to the apartment and they noted that there was a topiary rabbit wearing a marching band hat, a heart shaped kitchen backsplash, several rooms of multi pattern mixed wallpaper.
    1:03:56
    Okay.
    1:03:56
    A wooden bird cage hanging from the ceiling. Ceiling.
    1:04:00
    I think it's a human sized bird cage, right?
    1:04:02
    Yes, yes. Like you could crawl in there. And then she also had a photo of the Kanye stage crashing moment with the same inscription from the liner notes. Life is full of little interruptions. Like framed in her living room.
    1:04:17
    That's fascinating. Some of that imagery makes its way into the stage on the Red tour.
    1:04:22
    Yeah, the marching band hat and actually. And the. And the rabbit.
    1:04:26
    Yep.
    1:04:26
    And the whole Alice in Wonderland thing.
    1:04:27
    Yep, yep, yep. Interesting. Well, we're on to Peak Taylor and I'm going to jump in with this one because for me, Peak Taylor is launching a fragrance line with Elizabeth Arden called Wonderstruck.
    1:04:44
    Oh my God.
    1:04:46
    In 2011. Which again, wonderstruck is the line from Enchanted. It's the word she put in the song so that Al City guy would know that it was about him and then basically made sure that everyone.
    1:05:01
    Because one of them had emailed the other one with the word Wonderstruck in it and she was like, oh yeah.
    1:05:06
    He had used the word Wonderster emailed her wonderstruck. But it is Peak Taylor in part because she is turning herself into a business woman. And I mean that in the Jay Z sense. Like, she's not a. She's not a businesswoman, She's a business comma woman. You know, in all of these single releases, she's putting out exclusive numbered copies coupled with merchandise. Sometimes they're through Target, but sometimes she's selling stuff exclusively through her own website. She sold like special black leather bracelets. Some of these packages had headphones. She's building a direct to consumer business. In 2010, 2011, when most people thought, well, you just got to put your stuff through Amazon if you want to do e commerce, she's finding ways to do that. In parallel, she is releasing some promotional material through itunes and Amazon, some singles through itunes and Amazon, which is a continuation of her trying to figure out the tension between digital and physical music. The leak that happened of the first single, mine, forced them to move up the release date of that song by two weeks. Big Machine released it two weeks earlier because there was a, like, shitty MP3 version that got circulated. But it, it really starts this awkward dance with digital music. How to harness it, how to protect against the downsides. And we're going to see over the course of the next couple of albums that she really tinkers with different strategies for how to ensure that she sells the most stuff possible, that digital doesn't undercut her business, that she does it in a way that is fan friendly and rewards those fans who buy direct from her. But that also begins to embrace what's happening in the digital music world.
    1:06:53
    Everybody can't see when Nathan gets his business cap on, he's like really going, just like really getting, really getting into it. I love it. I have no notes. That's. It is fascinating though, because I don't think that I was as tuned in to all of that at the time of this album. Although if anybody. If anybody still has Wonderstruck and wants to, like, send me a little vibe.
    1:07:12
    What does it smell like?
    1:07:13
    I would really love to know what it smells like. I sort of bet it smells like.
    1:07:16
    The Owl City guy. Ew.
    1:07:19
    Oh, God. I'm never gonna get over that. It's disgusting. Can I blow your mind a little bit here?
    1:07:25
    Please do.
    1:07:27
    Peak Taylor on this album is. It's the other Taylor. This is Peak Taylor Lautner. Yes.
    1:07:33
    Finally the time.
    1:07:35
    This is the best it ever got for Taylor Lautner.
    1:07:37
    I mean, he's the one who announced and gave her the. The Moon man at the 2009 VMAs before Kanye came up and grabbed the stage. Right. Who would have thought that at that episode, the person whose career got killed was Taylor Lautner.
    1:07:52
    Unbelievable. And he. And here's the thing. Like, he was a really, really, really big deal. I think it's kind of like. So, okay, Original Twilight is 2008. But first of all, Taylor Swift and Taylor Lautner, like, she was with him really at his apex, because it's the second half of 2009 when they're going out. And she also. She basically confirmed it on that SNL monologue because she's like, I'm not going to talk about any of this. But then she mouths high Taylor and like, waves at everyone. But the second Twilight had come out in 2009, which is really important because that's the one where he got to take a shirt off a lot. So she really found Taylor Lautner at his peak.
    1:08:38
    Very important.
    1:08:39
    I will say. Look, I don't wanna. You're gonna, like, turn red when I say this. But look, Taylor eventually does the song with Zayn for 50 Shades of Gray.
    1:08:51
    Yeah.
    1:08:52
    Which is what Twilight grew up into. Okay, so am I saying that Taylor Swift and Taylor Lautner have sort of paced a through line of the sexual awakening of a generation of women? I don't know if I'm saying that, but I'm not. Not saying it.
    1:09:05
    Okay. And I'm not read. That's. All right.
    1:09:08
    Taylor Lautner inspired a great song right back to December. He'd been in his biggest movie and his fourth biggest movie, Valentine's Day. And his last movie, his last great moment. Maybe he's been in some, like, cool indie stuff. I don't know. But this was. This was the apex for Team Jacob. So I think we got to give it to. We got to give it to him.
    1:09:36
    Well, there's one other interesting Twilight connection, and that is that I think belatedly, the best song in this album is Last Kiss. I love it. And it bothers me listening to it because it sounds so much like A Thousand Years by Christina Perry, which is the song from the second Twilight saga.
    1:10:05
    Eclipse, I have died every day waiting for you.
    1:10:11
    And Christina Perry released it after this album came out. So I am.
    1:10:17
    I think it was a little. It's a little later than that, too. Cause Eclipse is the third or fourth. I think the second one is New.
    1:10:23
    Moon, the second one is New Moon, so maybe it's Eclipse. But like this song, it feels like, first of all, Taylor definitely inspired that song. And it's just another Example, I guess, of her killing Taylor Lautner's career. I mean, what else do we have to talk about except that I'm on his IMDb right now. There's nothing. There's some movie called abduction in 2011, which is probably about stealing his career. I don't know. All right, let's move off of poor.
    1:10:55
    Well, so can I just tell. Hold on. Last Kiss. You'll never convince me otherwise. There's a really important episode of Grey's Anatomy in season two. It's the second part of the two parter where there's a bomb and a guy's body cavity. And you get through the first episode. Yeah. Like, you're. You're at the end of the first episode and you're like, how can this get ratcheted up even more? And then Meredith sticks her hand on the bomb, and then you find out that not only could they all explode in. In the or, they're also on top of the main gas line for the hospital. So, like, everybody could.
    1:11:31
    Everything's going up. Yeah.
    1:11:32
    And it's just like Shonda just toying with your emotions. Like, probably the two people who have just, like, mentally fucked with me the most are Taylor Swift and Shonda Rhimes. I'm now realizing. But one of this was a hard episode for you. Yes. An under. Like a sub narrative of that episode is that Meredith can't remember her last kiss with Derek because this is when he's with Addison.
    1:11:57
    Okay.
    1:11:57
    And it's driving her crazy. And I'm just. I will never believe that that wasn't part of the inspiration for that song, which I also like very much.
    1:12:06
    I love it.
    1:12:07
    My belatedly best song on this one is Dear John, which we've talked about enough, but for the record. And my next album, Appetizer is Long Live, which we also addressed a little bit, but to me, again, it's that it was the end of the decade, but the start of an age. I think it's a wonderful way to end this album and get into this.
    1:12:29
    Just a better version of Change.
    1:12:31
    Yeah. But I like change.
    1:12:35
    That doesn't make it bad. I'm just saying, doesn't this feel like sort of the hopeful, forward looking, somewhat generically lyric song that is better than Change?
    1:12:47
    Yeah. And I don't. My. My point about this is not based in the sonics of it. Because we're gonna talk about red next. That is such a hard, clear, obvious shift.
    1:13:05
    Yeah.
    1:13:05
    That I don't think, like you, none of us knew that was coming. I don't think there's anything on this album that really tells us that was coming. But I do think that just that lyric, to me, is so. Is so perfect for the place that this album has. I also, I will say for this song, and this is probably why it is a better version of Change. It's like the same as Change for three minutes, and then it just boom. And the band sounds awesome. It's an awesome song to play live. Like, that's where Long Live really gets to me. But to me, it's just that lyric.
    1:13:50
    Yeah, well, she used. She used Long Live to close the main set on this tour, so it was a big band hopeful, rock it out, you know, finish the show on a positive note. Song. And I think that's a little bit what Change was. But I like this song a lot better than Change.
    1:14:07
    To be clear, what's your hint for what's to come?
    1:14:11
    Mine is that they changed her dress color on the deluxe album from that purple to red to red.
    1:14:20
    Oh, that's clever. That's a good one.
    1:14:23
    Thank you very much.
    1:14:24
    All right. Best lyric for me.
    1:14:27
    I love she thinks I'm psycho because I like to rhyme her name with things, which is a great lyric.
    1:14:34
    I was not expecting that from you.
    1:14:35
    It's a great lyric from Better than Revenge, and it's a great lyric on a standalone basis, but it also rhythmically fits the song just perfectly. She thinks I'm psycho Cause I'd like to reign my name. I just love it. It's so good.
    1:14:50
    It's a good tongue twister.
    1:14:51
    Yes.
    1:14:52
    That's how Nathan warms up to record the podcast.
    1:14:54
    That's right. She thinks I'm psycho Because I like to rhyme her name with things.
    1:14:57
    Says it five times fast. Mine is. There's like eight that we could choose from Dear John, but mine is I lived in your chess game but you changed the rules every day yeah, I.
    1:15:06
    Knew you were going to bring some deer John, so I figured I needed to go outside of that.
    1:15:09
    Yeah, that. Well, so I. The other candidates to me are. You made a rebel of a careless man's careful daughter On Mine is also just says a lot with a little. And then I. I already mentioned this. I wouldn't choose but I do think don't you worry your pretty little mind People throw rocks at things that shine is sort of. It's just nice. It's like a special Taylor moment. All right, I've stalled enough.
    1:15:34
    You have to give it a album. This is so hard to do. It really is. Do we agree that this is her most underrated album.
    1:15:42
    Yes.
    1:15:43
    Well, ah, wait, see, because Ever. Yeah, zip. Don't say.
    1:15:48
    Well, there's like, there's three candidates for this.
    1:15:52
    Okay. Okay. This is a highly underrated album.
    1:15:57
    Yes.
    1:15:58
    And I think it got caught in the wake and the slipstream of Fearless and the stardom that came after it. She made a really great album in Speak now that didn't quite have the enduring icon status as an album, but many of the songs did. And therefore, Nora, your grade is.
    1:16:26
    I hate this. I hate this so much. I hate this so much. Because here's the thing. If the point of what passes the test of time is the high end, this album is an A. It truly, truly is. Because if I mean Dear John, Enchanted, Back to December, mean and Long live that group of five songs is like just heavy hitter after heavy hitter. And to assign something like I'm fine, whatever, I'm gonna give it a. A minus.
    1:17:00
    Yes, that is the right grade in my opinion as well.
    1:17:04
    But to assign something like that to an album that has those songs on it is like sort of devastating to me. But I guess that we have to consider the whole product.
    1:17:12
    I understand. I think top to bottom as an album, I think it might be better than Fearless As a collection of songs.
    1:17:20
    I think it is better than Fearless.
    1:17:21
    She's pushing the envelope, the productions better. Her vocals are great. They have evolved since Fearless. She takes more risks. It's more diverse. There's more everything. It's a bigger album. And top to bottom, I think the quality of the songs are stronger. It is missing one thing and that is the group sing along factor that we got from Fearless. I mean people still sing along to Mean and Back to December and a number of the other songs, but this one feels like more of an insider for those like core die hard group of fans who got her again. That said, this album sells more copies in the United States of America than Red Never forget A minus.
    1:18:10
    Long live. It's a really special album. I'm going to go listen to it. Next time we meet. We're going to talk about Red.
    1:18:17
    Oh boy. Change is a foot.
    1:18:20
    This has been every single album. Taylor Swift for Nathan Hubbard. I'm Nora Princioti. Thanks for listening to us break down Speak now. We'll be back on the ringer dish feed Thursday talking about Taylor's fourth album, Red.

    'Speak Now' | Every Single Album: Taylor Swift

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